Yes, but which God?
@Jason I've studied them all. The all feel empty except one. Christianity.
Being of somewhat advanced years I Iearnt many decades ago not to waste time and breath discussing religion. By the same token I do not pay $32 per four weeks to read the rambling proselytising of Sheridan or any other advocate for the supernatural.
@jayess Hi Jayess,
Then I assume you didn't read the article? Why waste time commenting when there are plenty of other articles that might amuse you?
There are a lot of us that appreciate reading Greg's work. n
@David @jayess He did read the article David; which is why he summarised it so well. Personally I thought 'rambling proselyting' was letting the arguments off lightly.
@Richard @David @jayess Hi Richard,
"summarised it so well". That is a laugh. Jayess expressed a dismissive opinion like someone deliberately breaking a window and running away. n
Hey paul when I'm dead and gone, that's it, the rest of it is purely imagination.
There are more stars in the Universe than there are sand corns on planet Earth!
The Universe is NEVER ending.
If the current estimate of 14 billion years, up from estimated 4.5 Billion years last year,
is valid- what was there 15 Billion years ago?
Did time exist?
It is beyond human comprehension to understand any of this.
Our speculations about a Creator are and always will be just speculations.
Enjoy every day and worry less about tomorrow.
If there really were an all-powerful, all-knowing omnipresent God wanting us to know him, this discussion would not be taking place.
@Sean And if He/She/It really wanted it he would have told everyone much earlier; and maybe chosen messengers from a more admirable, civilized and literate culture rather than warring desert tribes whose favourite pastime was practicing genocide on their neighbors. And then boasting about it.
"That the physical universe we know is apparently 14 billion years old tells us nothing about who created it or why."
The usual implicit (and logically flawed) assumptions about a pre-existing creator and a purpose - one might as well believe that little green men dwelling on a Jupiter moon did it - because they were bored.
PS latest theories indicate there may be even a multitude of 'universes' popping in and out of existence - forever. 'God' within such a scenario is a rather helpless term, since we can't think outside of a 'cause and effect' framework and therefore desperately need a 'creator'...
Sheridam writes " I have faith that I am the son of my parents. I have no real empirical evidence for it." but that evidence can be obtained. Like how a modern car works although there is the possibility of proof.
Perhaps Sheridan is ignorant if the process where a car is created as a digital model, a complete computer simulation down to the numbers on the heads of the bolts, which is used for everything from predicting cabin noise to crash tests. It represents if you will the science, the complete knowledge , of the car. There is no majic in cars just technology that although not understood by Sheridan it is understood by many.
We don't understand where the universe came from and certainly don't know if there is a reason. But this is not proof that there is a god. Not knowing how or why is not a justification for an unfounded majical answer. That large parts of humanity seek comfort in adhering to a belief that we are the product of gods work without any supporting evidence does not make God true. However many people engage in the delusion it's still delusion.
The voice in your head is yours, I'm sure pshycologists have a term for it. The surprising hubris here is that Sheridan seems to suggest that the voice in his head is God, that his inner self is connected to some omnipotent being responsible for planning all creation. Strangely I'm reminded of a decade of church schooling with the voice of my conscience coughing "bull ....".
@Tim Greg Sheridan could determine that he is a son of his parents by the simple expedient of a DNA test. He doesn't need faith as there is a logical scientific test process available to him to determine his genetic relationship with his parents. This is just another example of tautology practised by the adherents of so-called faith-based propositions.
By the end of the 19th century the "search for the historical Jesus" was leading many people into skeptical territory. How reliable are the Biblical accounts? Did the man even exist? Was the exemplary ethical teacher an invention of Kant and the enlightenment?
If people were skeptical then, today the situation is many times more challenging. What does Jesus mean to us today, when we can put him in an anthropological and historical context, alongside stories of thousands of other shamans and miracle workers, revered by their fellow tribesmen?
Is it simply an accident of history that this particular Jewish shaman ended up at the heart of the European civilization that conquered the globe? Or did the particularities of Christ's legacy contribute to this rise of the West from its tribal origins?
One thing is clear: Christ's origins as a Jewish teacher did not define what he became. His Jewish disciples gained from him a sense that they had a message that belonged to all people. He was, in today's jargon, the bearer of a 'disruptive' message.
The deeper question, and answer, that he embodied for many of his followers, concerns the question of life and death. We do not escape those questions. We remain mortal. Nor can we evade the answer. It was, from the beginning, focused on "Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles".
This was always viewed by the worldly wise as foolishness. The skeptics were there from the start. Those who arrogantly assume that they have discovered "hard headed realism" after two thousand years of "mushy brained superstition", are ignoring the fact that Christianity was, from the beginning, an appeal to a truth that transcends our easy logical and empirical forms of validation.
Christianity is a faith in the eternal presence of a loving God, despite all the evidence that would persuade us not to believe.
@Andrew
I get that. You have tossed reason out the window and let belief in through the door.
The gods are beyond reason and beyond rationality. The notion that one of the gods took some time out to father some kind of humanoid son is precisely where throwing reason out the window gets you.
@Patricia @Andrew Reason that does not know its limitations is not reason, it is pure hubris. Socrates was led by reason to a place of humility: he knew that there was much that he did not know. He would not betray the truth, and faced with death he had a place for faith in things unseen.
Another man of a similar persuasion also affirmed the limitations of reason. He argued that of the many gifts that we humans are born with, there are three that we should prize above all others: faith, hope and love. "But the greatest of these is love."
My inner voice tells me if I sail off into the horizon I will fall off the edge. Intuition is fraught.
'The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.' Galatians 5 v 6. Sums up to me what Christianity is all about.
@Carole Please let your fellow Christians in on this well-kept secret. The Christians are currently mashing a whole lot of LGBTI youth.
@Carole For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
@Carole Greg doesnt mention Christianity, this is about the existence of God the creator and controller of everything, from the big bang to who wins the Melbourne cup.
I practice (Aquarian) spirituality . . Not religion. Spirituality is a discipline ( a practice or method ) which cultivates love. There is no reqirement for belief. If there are gods, then living a love filled life, would please them. Im simply content to help create heaven around me by being loving.
Next week is Halloween, or All Hallow's eve. Few realise at the day coincides with the sun entering the constellation of Libra. Libra is represented by the scales of justice. The year's departed were once thought to begin their journey to heaven on this day. Of course, they first faced judgement during the time the sun was in Libra.
The dead who sinned ( everyone ! ) then followed the sun into the constellation of Scorpio, whose sting, provided the punishment for the seven days that the sun passed through Scorpio.Here is the origin of purgatory.
Finally, ritully judged and cleansed, the sun then led the dead to the final destination : the 13th constellation - Orphiucus, which is located 'on' the Milky Way. Here is the Golden Gate of Heaven. The planet Saturn is usually found at this point, from which we get Satan - prince of the afterlife.
In celebration of the dead's annual pilgrimage to heaven , the ancient's celebrated Saturnalia in December, grateful to Satan for letting the dead entre heaven ( ( the Roman church replace Satan's role here, with St Peter and kis keys to heaven ).
Few appreciate the role of the heavenly bodies in forming our traditions and beliefs.Some th ing to share as hou hand out treats on All Hallow's eve !
@Michael Hey man! Off the planet!
@Michael Wow. Thank you Michael there is a lot there I was not aware of.
But you should have reminded folk that Satan and God hold regular discussions too.
In one of these, Satan said to God that things in Hell were improving dramatically since they had acquired a resident engineer who had installed flush toilets and air conditioning! God replied that there was no place for an engineer in Hell and he was to be sent up to heaven immediately. Old Nick told God no way, he was enjoying having a resident engineer.
God thundered "Send him up here or I will sue." and Satan replied:
"So tell me God, where would you get a lawyer?"
@Michael . They say you have wasted a day if you haven't leaned something. So Michael, I have to thank you for saving my day, because despite wading though all the nonsense and all the reasoned argument in this thread, I have now learned someting - I did not know that Halloween marked the sun entering the constellation of Libra. I used to think it just vaguely marked the start of Winter.
There is a great English folk song, famously recorded by Fairport Convention, called "Tam Lin" and I think it' s thesis is that on the night of Halloween those who have spells cast on them have an opportunity to shake them off by passing various endurance tests. I have never been able to confirm this - do you know anything about this?
@Michael
"...The dead who sinned (everyone!) then followed the sun into the constellation of Scorpio, whose sting, provided the punishment for the seven days that the sun passed through Scorpio..."
Just out of interest: is there a way to avoid this constellation?
Doobie, doobie, do...
I am quite surprised at this series of articles Paul Kelly and Greg Sheridan expressing their longing for a return to a more Christianity-focused version of Western society. Maybe it's an attempt by The Australian to provide some basis for a range of political positions against the cultural left and non-Christian religions. I am not sure. One thing I credit Sheridan for in this attempt is the certain knowledge that you cannot long for a return merely to the cultural and value elements of Christianity without the prospect that people would accept the details of its Catechism. To have a go at at persuading people of the credibility of the core beliefs of Christianity in this post-Christian world must have taken some courage. As for the specifics, I am afraid that the argument from majority opinion, the argument from first causes and the argument from the notion that people want to believe in God are all pretty weak. The idea that an omnipotent God would take responsibility only for the good and beautiful things in the universe is wishful. Perhaps the weakest element of the argument is the idea that God is needed to explain the 'why' of things, while science just deals with the how. This strikes me as a childlike demand that things always have to have a reason and that everything is for the good. It is just as likely that there is no reason at all in the natural universe, just a vast working out of chance and causes and effects. It works for me.
If god and religion wasn't taught until people were 20, it would cease it exist. Ultimately, everyone is an atheist of other people's religion and god, the smart ones have just taken it one god further. Giving up having imaginary friends means you've finally grown up, but hey whatever floats your boat. Believe what you want, just don't ask me to believe it too, something that religion has been forcing on children since time began. Forcing religion on children is akin to child abuse.
Seriously? Why does he get a platform to spout this material? He has every right to his beliefs, but to avoid embarrassment he should stick to his foreign affairs analysis.
One aspect of the article above is we now have a better understanding of Sheridan's understanding of the world.
Yes and he has eroded his credibility in the process.
Well said Mr. Sheridan. To believe that this earth and all plant and animal life in it is a cosmic freak accident of an unguided, accidental process takes more faith to believe than that there is a designer and executer of that design...it is too perfectly balanced and complex to be accidental, it is intelligently designed by our Creator. Believing that it is accidental and random is not only improbable, it is impossible.
Keep it coming Mr. Sheridan...thank you for your bravery in speaking the truth.
@Fred I would have thought that anyone watching the Coalition's antics this week would have cured any reasonable person of an addiction to 'intelligent design'.
@Fred
I guess we could go to the bible for our answer but I am still getting over "The moon produces it's own light, zombie saviours and virgin births"
@Fred So many faults here Fred. But if humans were intelligently designed how come we have appendices? And what sort of apprentice designer would put the optic nerve where it is in the human eye? A human designer with those skills would not pass first year engineering or industrial design. Or do you think human engineers are smarter than their intelligent designer?
PS: If Man is made in God's image does God have an appendix, and a belly button? If not why not?
Life is best defined as information that can organize its own copying. Shakespeares plays are alive but they require a complex substrate - intelligent people who speak English. You dear reader, are alive, but you also require a complex substrate, not just the solar system, perhaps not even the whole galaxy, but quite probably the entire universe, which is why the Creator has provided it for the person that is uniquely you.
God the Fathers first job was to copy Himself as God the Son; the force between Father and Son became the Holy Spirit. There is a faint reflection of this process in the hydrogen atom, which requires the presence of all three particles - proton, electron and photon to be hydrogen.
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@Karl The belief that one individual has the right to display contempt to those who share an opposing view is hubristic bigotry of the highest order. Why do close-minded, incredulous atheists have conniptions whenever they hear a view that differs to their own. Atheists are really just a bunch of babies.
@Karl Hallelujah (pardon the pun).
Some common sense in a swamp of general ignorance and stupidity.
@Patrick @Karl Because Patrick sometimes the vapid, mind-numbing credulousness of the religious drives the most temperate of people to distraction.
I suggest a couple of experiments.
First, accept the underlying principles expounded by Jesus and helpers but remove entirely any mention of a God. Does it all hold up fairly well? Some modernisation might he useful here and there, of course. The logical answer is a resounding yes.
Second, ban completely any religious instruction or learning for children below, say, 18 years. Then evaluate critical thinking amongst the group in a generation's time. This one may be more difficult to handle given the bombardments generated in everyday life. Even so, have a think. My own view is that there would be both good and bad outcomes,
Perhaps I might add a third question. Why is there so much reluctance to update bibles, korans, etc, to meet the demands of today? At best, it amounts to sheer bloodimindedness. At worst, it deadens critical thinking, creates donkey paths, and builds dissention, even murder.
All of which should put Greg's words into context, given his upbringing in in the Catholic church (which should have been stated, but was not)..
Incidentally, the answer to the BIg Bang point (and some others) about earth and the human race is straightforward. It was a fluke.
BruceT - an atheist who quite likes a lot of Christian values. Yes, I am happy to have my cake and eat it, too. Mainly because I have the choice.
I find it amazing how unbelievers get so tied up in knots when faced by someone with the opposite view. Why does it upset you so much and why the derision? Surely someone else's faith shouldn't be so challenging to atheists....that it is, says more about your own spiritual life choices than it does about those made by the believers.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not tied up in knots by the article.
Greg has listed the usual bunch of fallacious claims and bad arguments for a god.
Just pointing some of them out. Are we supposed to sit silently when we hold a different position.
Should we not contest ideas?
At most I'm surprised this is the best a smart commentator has to offer.
Some have faith in Allah. Others in shiva or astrology. That doesn't challange me. However we are free to point out the poor logic and unreasonable position of believing in unsubstantiated and often mutually contradictory faith based dogmas.
@Christine Because to sprout what quite obviously is not true is in direct conflict with science. Whether it be government funding for science or jailing scientists for working out the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way round. Remember the meaning of faith to the rational mind to it believe something there is no evidence for.
A very confused article, but it is a good insight into the irrationality of the conservative mind and its love of ideology. I believe therefore I'm right.
More to the point, the idea of NO God is illogical!
@Rebecca What? Why? Explain yourself Rebecca.
@Rebecca
It would be so nice if you could at least try to explain such a bizarre proposition, but even better if you could do so without being illogical. Try it.
Rebecca, you believe. So therefore, you are right
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